Joe Perez, the presiding judge of the Orange
County Community Court, discusses how the principles of procedural
justice inform both design and process in his courthouse. Perez is a lifelong resident
of Orange County whose father was the first Spanish-speaking attorney and judge in the county. The interview with
Robert V. Wolf, director of communications at the Center for Court Innovation, took place while Judge Perez was in
Chicago to speak at Community Justice 2016. Wolf interviewed Judge Perez’s predecessor and the
founding judge of the Orange County Community Court, Wendy
Lindley, in 2008.
The following is a transcript.
JUDGE JOSEPH PEREZ: The words, “I’m proud of you,” go so far
with this population because no on in the criminal justice system has ever said that.
I’m Rob Wolf, director of communications at Center for Court Innovation here in Chicago at Community Justice
2016 where people from all around the country and even around the world have come to learn and discuss justice reform,
new strategies, new ideas, new programs, and research. Lots
of topics have been discussed and are being discussed during this two and a half day conference. With me right now
is someone who presented and also practices community justice, Judge Joseph Perez, who is the presiding judge of
the Orange County Community Court. He has presided there for the last two years, but he’s in fact been a judge
for the last nine years. Today we were
going to talk a little bit about procedural justice. PEREZ, could you tell me a little bit about what procedural
justice looks like at the Orange Country Community Court?
to start with, we’re unique in that we are a standalone court in the middle of Santa Ana where what we’ve
tried to do is have a one-stop shop where people who don’t even have to be charged with crimes can come in to
get services. Who do we have there? We have the Healthcare Agency of Orange County, which can provide healthcare
services. Once a month during our homeless courts,
we bring in a nurse practitioner with a line of nurses to assess and treat the homeless. We have Social Services
Agency of Orange County there which also provides assistance. Food stamps, cash aid if they qualify to assist them
in that regard. We also have vocational rehab from the state to assist people in getting jobs. We have the Veteran’s Administration there and they are
there because unfortunately in my county, Orange County, California we have a large population of homeless that’s
in fact there was a study that was recently done that specifically targeted Orange County, which is a fairly high
socio-economic status county, and it came out and it said virtually every veteran that is discharged into the county
of Orange would have been homeless by for family or friends. It’s
an extraordinary issue. We have Veteran’s Administration Office there. We also have legal aid that comes in
several times a week that can assist people with civil legal actions. We have a place where people can bring their
children to be watched while they go into court or seek out these services. All of those kids get to go home with a book. This is an extraordinary opening and inviting
court. We have a sandwich board outside that says, “Visitors are welcome. This is not just for people that are
charged with crimes.”
WOLF: That’s a key tenet of procedural
justice that you are open and welcoming, and I suppose transparent about the services you offer, and make it easy
for people to come and go. I suppose it’s not a confusing place as someone comes in and they aren’t there
particularly for a court purpose, but they want assistance in one of the areas you’ve just described. That’s
PEREZ: Yeah. The whole environment of our collaborative court is
to defuse and deescalate the intensity of the criminal justice system, frankly. We have pews in my courtroom instead
of seats. I can’t take credit for it. My predecessor, Judge Lindy Linley, she built that place from the ground
up. You walk into our court, we get people from all
over the United States, all over the world, come into our court and say, “Wow, this is an extraordinary place.”
This is not like you would think of a courtroom. It’s an inviting place. It looks like a church for crying out
loud with really nice chandeliers. It’s
a beautiful place. With an open area, we don’t have bars that separate our inmates. We have a glass panel and
the reason why she did it, it’s brilliant. So they can see out. They feel a little bit close and connected to
those that are not in custody and they can also see visually and hear auditorily what these folks are doing to stay
out of trouble.
WOLF: This is in the courtrooms?
This is in the courtroom.
WOLF: That is in the courtroom where they have access
or they can hear everything that’s going on.
PEREZ: Yeah, and they can see everything
that’s going on. We don’t try to separate them like many do. We want them to be able to see and hear what
we’re doing for those that are in custody because it’s a learning experience. A lot of what we do in our
court is teach and provide the services necessary to keep them from coming back. Procedural justice, in my opinion, making people feel comfortable, and making them feel like they’re
heard. When a judge cares and they see it, and they feel it, and I do care very much, and my caring is to keep them
from ever coming back. To stay out of the system, to provide them whatever services are necessary that we can provide
and keep them from coming back. Really
celebrating with them as they move theirselves along. The fact that you care and if they see that, it’s an extraordinary
thing because all of a sudden, they want to be able to tell you, and impress you, and say, “Look, I’m doing
this, judge. Take a look at what I’m doing.” The words, “I’m proud of you,” go so far with
this population because no one in the criminal justice system has ever said that when you think about it.
WOLF: In fact, it’s probably a lot of judges or it’s in the traditional mode
the way people thing of judges, they don’t think of a judge saying to a defendant, “I’m proud of you.”
It’s not like that’s something you do naturally. It also has been substantiated by research that one of
the components of procedural justice is in fact the relationship between the judge and the defendant. It’s allowing them to have the voice, the understanding of the procedures, a sense
that they’re being treated fairly. In fact, speaking that way to a defendant embodies those principles that
research has shown have had positive results/impacts on defendant compliance and acceptance of sentences, and long-term
PEREZ: It has to be sincere. The interesting thing, and this is
mentioned this week, that the personality of the judge is pervasive throughout the court. The staff, the bailiffs,
everybody in my courthouse really comes back to you. I’m a second generation judge. My father, he was the first Spanish-speaking attorney in Orange County and then from there, he became
the first Spanish-speaking judge. I remember being a toddler running around my father’s court and there was
this sense of peace. I don’t know how to explain it, but it started with my dad. He was a very generous, kind,
caring judge, and it had a heck of an impact on me.
I remember lawyers coming in and saying, “That’s your father?” “Yes.” “Let me just
tell you something. We love coming to this court because we are all treated so fairly. Everyone’s listened to.”
There is not a person that walked into that court that wasn’t treated with respect. I don’t care whatever
you were charged with and that’s the way it should be.
That’s remarkable. It’s interesting because you talked about somebody being handcuffed, but being treated
nicely. Procedural justice doesn’t mean that the court is in any way abdicating security. There’s metal
detectors and there’s accountability. None of those things are being abdicated when when you do engage in procedural
PEREZ: Not at all. It’s how you do it as far as I’m concerned. You
make reasonable boundaries. Everything we do in our court, and I say this to defendants all the time, “Everything
we do is geared for one reason and that’s to graduate you and see that you never come back.” Look around. I have them look around and I say, “Look at everyone here
including the prosecutor. All of us want you to succeed.” Have you ever heard that in any other courtroom? The
answer is no. The prosecutor wants to send you away and there’s this adversarial environment where people are
arguing. Our is not that way at all. Quite the opposite. Setting
up these courts is another issue and I’ve talked about it. There is a lot of abrasiveness in setting these courts
up. I’ve mentioned previously that my predecessor, she was told, “You continue on this path, someone challenges
you on election, we may not support you,” and she said, “I’m doing it.” I’ve had people
call me the Clappy Court. Perez’s Court is the Clappy Court.
Because you applaud?
PEREZ: Yeah, exactly. Social worker with a robe I mentioned.
WOLF: A hundred times.
PEREZ: I’ve had probation officers
say, “So you’re going to hug a thug?” The interesting thing is those folks that make those statements
have never been a collaborative court and they certainly have never been in mine. There has not been one person that
has walked into my court and has seen what we do and walked out and said, “This is a waste of money or time.” In fact, we’re saving money. Since 1995, we got a yearly report that
goes out talking about our statistics. Since 1995, when the court began, the number is somewhere around 110 million
dollars that we have saved in costs for jail. When I go in front of the legislature, I go in front of those that
want to shut us down, it’s not necessarily legislature, but when I try to speak about what we do, all I do is
I say, “We’re saving lives and money.”
PEREZ: Does anybody have a problem with it? Seriously, we have the data to
back it up. These people are not coming back. Some do of course, but the recidivism rate has basically been turned
upside down. I’ve told the legislature that, “I wish you guys had a camera in our court to see what we
do. After you watch and you see what we’re doing here and you have a problem with it, then talk to me, but don’t
throw stones from outside without knowing what we do.”
WOLF: I just want
to ask you one more thing and it’s something that you mentioned when you participated in the panel yesterday
on race, legitimacy, and community justice. You said something to the effect that it was, “Important for a judge
to look like the people in the community the courthouse is serving.” I wonder if you could just say a little
bit more about that. Explain why you think that.
PEREZ: Well, I think what they need
to do is understand the community that they’re in and if possible, come from that community. Like I said, my
father grew up blocks from where we were. It’s heavily Hispanic and you can see when people come in, they see
the last name of Perez and they think, “Oh, this is someone that may understand what I’ve gone through.”
WOLF: Well, thank you so much for taking the time to talk with me and sharing with me
some of the work you’ve been doing at the Orange Country Community Court.
It’s been a pleasure. Thank you.
WOLF: I’ve been talking to Judge
Joseph Perez of the Orange County Community Court, and we are both here at Community Justice 2016 in Chicago. If
you want to find out more about what happened at the conference on The Center for Court Information website at www.courtinnovation.org
and you can listen to more podcasts, including one I did a few years ago with Jude Linley, who founded the court.
Thank you very much for listening.